Comments on: Jesus Never Told Us To Fill Church Buildings https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html News and Resources for Pastors, Worship Leaders, Youth Pastors, Children's Ministry, Small Groups, and Outreach & Missions Sat, 13 Jan 2024 04:28:49 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.4.5 By: Darin Richard Roberts https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52385 Sat, 23 Aug 2014 15:00:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52385 In reply to rhemapower.

thank you for the encouragement. Oddly enough as soon as I posted this the next day I had a heart attack and somehow I am taking a sabbatical from all the ministry that I had fun talking about. So now I’m witnessing two nurses and doctors and health care people. Once again we are the church to go out to people, not the other way around

]]> By: Langjan https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52380 Sat, 23 Aug 2014 05:30:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52380 Amen Karl. The way in which “churches” (there is only one true Church, the ecclesia, the body of Christ) are being organised is the outcome of lie-based dualistic thinking about what the essence of “church” should be. The outcome is separation via man-made denominational and dogmatic boundaries whilst Jesus came to unite His Church. So instead of teaching each other about a relationship with a living God we strive to divideand to focus on religious activities. No wonder the Power has left the denominations. It is now visible in countries where the followers of Jesus are persecuted.

The evangelist Carlos Ortiz said: We speak, sing and act wrong because we think wrong. We say we go to church. How can we when we are the church? We sing “come thee, ye who are weary come thee” but that is man’s song. God’s song is “go thee, ye who are lazy go thee.”

]]> By: rhemapower https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52369 Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:37:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52369 In reply to Ryan.

Why don’t you try attending an active inner city church? I go to one that does what you are talking about and I find it quite satisfying.

]]> By: rhemapower https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52368 Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:09:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52368 In reply to Darin Richard Roberts.

Even if every church did half of what Darin does, those empty cavernous church buildings would be overflowing and making the pastors think about a building program. What a wonderful ministry you have, Darin. Thanks for showing the other side of the coin.

]]> By: pastorintraining https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52230 Thu, 21 Aug 2014 02:21:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52230 In reply to Ryan.

Still not the same as actually going to a church. Everything looks and sounds diffrent when you are siting at home.

]]> By: Sylvia https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52132 Tue, 19 Aug 2014 21:58:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52132 This is the best article I have read from this website.

]]> By: Karl Vaters https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52087 Tue, 19 Aug 2014 14:27:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52087 In reply to Rodolfo Samaniego.

That’s true, Rodolfo. God sends us out after we have gathered in, first. We have to BE the church before we can go out AS the church.

]]> By: Karl Vaters https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52086 Tue, 19 Aug 2014 14:23:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52086 In reply to Sheila.

Well said, Sheila.

]]> By: Ryan https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52063 Tue, 19 Aug 2014 12:03:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52063 In reply to pastorintraining.

I listen to and/or watch online sermons on and off from area ‘prospective’ churches. I do try to push myself into at least visiting one without success. I ask myself critical questions about the point of what is being preached and focus and point of what they are trying to get across. For instance, “If I never heard that sermon, would have I missed anything?” “Was it encouraging or discouraging?” Meaning was what was preached an encouragement to continue pushing on from where I am or just something that points out my shortcomings? Is the church promoting and teaching total reliance on God (Father, Son and Spirit) or promote partial reliance on church and people… i.e. accountability to others? Does the preaching grow people’s understanding of God correctly? Does preach promote the church’s own self interests…i.e. numerical growth, making members, regular attendance, groups, service in the church or securing funds by push of tithing? I check out the churches web sites to see what all they do here around where I live.

]]> By: disqus_I9J1Z0Cbgm https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52057 Tue, 19 Aug 2014 10:57:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52057 how true, We should acknowledge that the Church is ekklesia, a body of Believers whose mission ought to be, to live in their neighbourhoods as living epistles known and read by all men and whose works bring glory to God and whose Love, agape love is evident and so allowing the Holy-Spirit an impetus to bring conviction upon those who are merely observers.

]]> By: Rodolfo Samaniego https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52048 Tue, 19 Aug 2014 08:28:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52048 I’m afraid some are mislead into thinking they have no more need of being In but OUT as they’ve always have been wonted to. They make it now as a justification not to come to church. So sad as people always just pick to believe things that would justify their ways. I understand and believe what the author was aiming at but just that those unguided simply takes what justifies their ends.

]]> By: Sheila https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52041 Tue, 19 Aug 2014 03:37:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-52041 I agree that we should be out in the world doing ministry and being the church. But to be sent out means that you first had to be inside the church, being taught what the gospel message is. Being informed and having your mind renewed and receiving encouragement for being in ministry is necessary to do what the goal is. Too many people are hearing this message of “you don’t need church” and hear that as permission to take the importance of regular worship lightly. Jesus and his disciples took worship seriously, we should too. Worship and learning what Christ taught needs to be where we begin, so yes, fill the church on Sunday, but then do leave that building and be the church during the week.

]]> By: Ngata Tan https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51956 Sun, 17 Aug 2014 12:31:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51956 Don’t know about that but Jesus never commanded Christians to BUILD church buildings or to collect for a building funds… That’s for sure!!!

]]> By: Karl Vaters https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51911 Sat, 16 Aug 2014 16:46:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51911 In reply to Robin H..

Wow, Robin. Thank you for that passionate plea. You caught the message of the post accurately and reframed it beautifully. I really appreciate it.

]]> By: Robin H. https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51876 Sat, 16 Aug 2014 11:58:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51876 Pastors and ministry leaders – please don’t allow your pride to rob you of this powerful truth clearly spoken in love, by casually reviewing this article and making assumptions. Review it carefully and prayerfully, and take time to digest it. What Karl is saying, is that attendance growth should not be the main focus & purpose of the church, nor is the size of a particular gathering a true indication of health and vitality. The purpose of the church is to BE the hands and feet of Jesus to a lost, broken and needy world and we cannot do that if we are inwardly focused. The end of this article says it all – and it’s rooted in biblical truth: “Every truly great church experience should be aimed toward two things: 1) Magnifying the risen Christ; 2) Sending believers out better equipped to love, serve and share the good news in word and deed. I would also add that if your idea of evangelizing is to be a place that the unchurched desires to attend and that you measure your church’s health by how many hands are raised at the weekly invitation, you are also missing the mark. First – it’s simply not biblical. You can cherry pick the Word all you want – your truth doesn’t make or break THE truth. Second – the church is not what transforms lives – Jesus is. The church should be the vehicle (aka the vessel) not the destination. Bottom line – if you want to have a horizontal reach – you need to have a vertical focus. Well written Karl!

]]> By: Karl Vaters https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51863 Sat, 16 Aug 2014 05:15:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51863 In reply to ray.

I have written a book, Ray. Called “The Grasshopper Myth”. This post isn’t directly from it, but the book covers similar subjects. Check out my bio above for my website. You can buy the book there.

]]> By: pastorintraining https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51853 Sat, 16 Aug 2014 02:44:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51853 In reply to Ryan.

I have read post from you before you claim you have not stepped in church in several years, how would you know what Churches are doing or not doing?

]]> By: Brian H https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51804 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 20:28:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51804 The command to “make disciples” is rarely done anymore. We tell each other that we are suppose to go. But we do not provide a foundation upon which one can go. I thought that Jesus wanted mature believers who knew how to walk out being a disciple to come alongside those who are young and unskilled. That they would begin to become mature themselves and understand how to be a disciple.

]]> By: Elva https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51794 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 19:53:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51794 In reply to Coach Brown.

Sad, but true, I give out Bibles when I can, I’ve just begun, I’m praying for time to work my ministry, as I am on God’s time clock, not the world’s.

]]> By: David https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51773 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 17:48:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51773 In reply to Darin Richard Roberts.

Both perspectives are complimentary. We need to bring them in, so we can send them out. This is a key dynamic of the Great Commission. People like you are the grease on the skids. Well done. You’re having more impact than you know.

]]> By: ray https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51771 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 17:41:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51771 Is this a book? If so, where can I get it

]]> By: Karl Vaters https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51768 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 17:22:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51768 In reply to Darin Richard Roberts.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply and for your story. The church and the kids on the bus are blessed by servants like you.

]]> By: Karl Vaters https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51767 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 17:19:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51767 In reply to Pastor Philip Lazar.

I agree with that completely. Ingathering and outgoing are both needed. The point of the ingathering is two-fold: 1) to worship and be equipped so we can 2) go out and reach the world. My only point was that gathering in is not the goal, it’s a means to a greater end.

]]> By: Karl Vaters https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51766 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 17:13:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51766 In reply to Kris.

Actually Kris, I think church attendance obsession can be found in any church, large or small. What I said in the post, isn’t that Small Churches are more susceptible to church attendance obsession, but that they are more susceptible to a longing for “the good old days.”

]]> By: Pastor Philip Lazar https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51765 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 17:13:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51765 U can find Karl Vaters pure eisegesis of Lk 14:14 he had not touched verse 23-24. Church is a gathering of saved people of God for edification and to get equipped for the ministry Eph 4:12,16. U cannot go out to reach out without gathering in.

]]> By: Kris https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51763 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 16:26:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51763 I’m intrigued by the article, but I severely disagree with you that the church attendance obsession is in the small churches. I think the church attendance obsession is rather in the churches which are full every Sunday, and aren’t afraid to tell others about it. I’m not anti-mega church, or anti-corporate worship. I am without a doubt anti-attendance bragging.

]]> By: Darin Richard Roberts https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51754 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 13:47:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51754 I enjoyed this commentary, since I have always felt myself to be much more of the evangelist than a pastor. I spent the first decade of my ministry doing kids crusades, Sidewalk Sunday School, and Bus Ministry. I love reaching into unreached areas to spread the gospel, or showing love to kids and families who have never had someone show love and compassion without an agenda. I have spent every Saturday for the last 32 years visiting EVERY home of EVERY family who rides the church bus.
The balance I see needs to be emphasized is that filling the church is not the GOAL but part of the method of reaching and disciplining. I love to have BIG groups of kids in children’s church, as it adds excitement, plus the service time is where I can teach the gospel. The time on the bus is actually my discipleship time, as the kids ask me questions about what I taught in church – 90 minutes before and after church that some would consider wasted time… Add the personal contact of the home visitation, the helping with physical needs (food, fixing the single moms fan belt, socks for school, blankets when the unexpected cold front hits in September in Florida…), and the home fellowship at my house where I teach “Parenting by the Beatitudes” to the parents who’s kids ride the bus, and you have a much fuller fulfillment of the “highways and byways” concept.
I love a full church! I love having 600 kids in a room instead of 12, especially when I can actually call 90% of them by name! I have no problem with a full church, as long as they are “wild range sheep”, not from another flock…
To sum up, to have a “FULL CHURCH” is not a bad thing, but CAN be a symptom of the health and effectiveness of your ministry. A fisherman’s net being full CAN be a sign of how good he is at his job. If his net is full of wiggly fish, he is probably working his zone well, finding his catch. If his net is full of “Chicken of the Sea” cans, it only shows he knows how to rob the tuna cannery. And there are WAY too many “fresh fish” being ignored just waiting for ANYONE to go out to them, ready to jump into your boat if given the chance.
My team and I filled a 66 passenger bus in less than 6 weeks, the second bus in less than 5 months, and the third in less than a year – in 2012- simply by going out and BEING THE CHURCH.
Thanks for the discussion. Be blessed.

]]> By: Rufo https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51750 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 12:53:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51750 Karl very good that’s the gospel. Pastors church owners see that as a business for them own benefits. (Not all of them but a lot)
It is sad.
God bless you in Jesus name

]]> By: Coach Brown https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51749 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 12:43:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51749 Church is not a place to go or a building to invest our time with God. We are suppose to be the church! Our lives are to be an investment to God. We have made church a place, a location, a destination – but that never is what Jesus had in his vision.

]]> By: Ryan https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51744 Fri, 15 Aug 2014 12:10:00 +0000 https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-how-to/175601-karl-vaters-never-told-us-to-fill-church-buildings.html#comment-51744 This is a good idea,.. a new old way of thinking. Have a church that is promoted as a temporary place to go to help with your relationship with God and help with life in respect to God. Have a church where people who want to serve, not inside the church so much but serve the community… not just in spiritual things only but even with helping people finding jobs, widow and elderly needs, social needs. There is so much more a church could do than preach to people about going to church, being involved in inside church ministries or groups. I turn my nose up as so many area churches for this enslavement to church type preaching and inside ministries. I can’t support a church who just wants to make more slaves and donors to the church institution.

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